Musicians get political; the mother-son duo behind 'The Infiltrator;' life of a rock 'n' roll roadie

Ellen: Brad called me and said, You know, this is a book about a very complicated money laundering thing. I have a law background so basically what happened was, he said, Come up and pitch for this movie. You're not going to get it, but it'll be really good experience for you. So I went up and pitched for it. It was a very fun and friendly pitch and then the producer, Miriam Segal, took me out to lunch and later I think she read some of my work. It was a crazy process, but I got the job. 

Brad: Don Sikorski, who I went to college and played basketball with at New York University, brought me the book. When we were on the hunt for writers, we had read 50 to 100 scripts. None really met the bar. When we narrowed it to a handful of filmmakers, Don said to me, I think we should hire your mom. My response was, You're crazy and we'll never be able to get her the job. She's never been hired professionally and she's a great literary writer, but that's never happening. I probably tried to soften the blow, saying it's a long shot or you're probably not going to get it, but she was the best writer and she was the one who after years of education and years of life experience, her law background — all of those elements I think brought a different point of view to the material. It was not about mother and son ultimately, it was about really what's best for the movie. The tricky part is, as I've tried to explain to people, my mom can't turn off the mom button. She's always my mom.

Brad: So when I would say to her, You're not my mom, you're the screenwriter, you have to understand that, she would look at me half-sideways. But, in truth, that distinction was a very challenging climb for us because I needed a screenwriter. I didn't need my mom. 

Ellen: Exactly. 

Brad: I did get that response a few times.

Ellen: I think it's good and it has its drawbacks. It's really good because we can say anything to each other and express ourselves in a way that won't interfere with working hard to get the best product. So there's an honesty there between the two of us. It's the role reversal. He's the boss and at times I have to understand that's where I have to shut my mouth, but lots of times I have problems with that. So it's more of an issue with me than it is with Brad.

Brad: That is ultimately what was a problem at times because it is a director's medium. That doesn't mean I'm undermining the screenwriter and it doesn't mean that the screenwriting isn't important. From this vantage point, my mother never had the experience of translating script to screen. 

Ellen: No, I never had that.

Brad: I actually believe that the education that comes along with watching the material be adapted is invaluable. A lot of my arguments from time-to-time were, You're writing great things, but this won't translate. Or, You're writing great things but it's going to evolve or change over time. I think she really struggled with that because as a literary writer, it's an autonomous world that she lives in. She writes, it's done and that's it. I think that's very difficult. Did it put strains on our lives at times? Sure. Did it put stresses and strains on my father, who felt stuck in the middle at times? A thousand percent. He was like collateral damage, the innocent bystander. But the pride that I have is a lot of people feel like the movie has a different slant to it. It has a different entry point. It has some things that feel, hopefully, original. I do believe that really started with my mom. The perspective and the point of view that she took to breaking the material — it was just different. That's because she's not doing this every day. 

Ellen: Ironically, I find that I understand both sides of it because of my upbringing. I really feel that being a parent and being a full-time career person, I had a lot of stress in going to work all day. And I had a son. I wanted to bring that to the screen. I also think I understood the criminal element too because I grew up in a family where my dad was involved in owning a bar and he had bookie [experience] and worked at the race track. My whole life as a child, I grew up knowing people who were maybe a little bit below the law. So I think that maybe helped me a little bit too.

Ellen: Honestly, I'm on my third act because I was a teacher before Brad was born. I became an attorney and because my husband took up a job, I ended up having to give up my career. I always wanted to do writing, but never had any time, so that gave me the time to do it. Brad was the one who gave me the idea that I should try screenwriting. He's offered me an opportunity that I feel really blessed to have because I really enjoy screenwriting. 

Ellen: As a woman doing what I did, going into trial work back in the late '70s, I feel like there's nothing I can't accomplish if I really put my mind to it and I work hard. That's sort of what Brad's saying. I didn't feel any obstacles. No one said to me, You can't do this. Brad was extremely supportive of me. Obviously, I wouldn't have had the interview with Miriam Segal if it weren't for Brad. I think, in a way, Miriam was taking a big risk to even hire me. The fact that she took that risk and was willing to hire me speaks really well for her, and I thank her for that opportunity and Brad and everyone included on this project. Because how do you get your first start? It's hard. I appreciated everyone's support all throughout the process.

Brad: Oh, I know that. Barry Seal.

Ellen: Oh, big creative dispute.

Brad: (laughs) In all of my research about Escobar, what fascinated me the most was Barry Seal. He was the one white guy that had the relationship with Pablo as far as distributing the drugs and transporting them. Unbeknownst to people at the time, he was tied to Bush and tied to the government and at a certain point became an informant. There was all of this stuff regarding him that was fascinating to me. I thought on the Escobar story, that was the way in. I felt very strongly that we were telling Bob's true story, we were taking things out of the book, we were being spot and straight on. I wanted to really examine all the pieces to this puzzle.

Brad: Yeah.

Ellen: From the writing perspective, I didn't think it was necessary. Ironically, it moves to a different medium in film and makes a different impression. Obviously, Brad was right. I mean, I hate to admit that Brad was right. ... Not really.

Brad: That was my theory. If I had to do it all over again, there are things with regard to that storyline and character and their interactions that I would do differently. But you make choices and we hopefully did the best that we could. 

Brad: I would. I think we've learned a lot. I think we've grown a lot. I'm very deeply proud of my mom and she's a real talent. She's probably the best writer that I've ever worked with, hands down. I think that she's great at this and I hope ageism doesn't get in the way with regards to Hollywood. 

Ellen: Just the fact that he would even send me for a job interview, knowing that this is important for his career, makes me feel valued and makes me feel that he respects me. Of course I would do it again, but we'll have to see if the opportunity happens. 

People don't understand the bad side of what I do ... [like] when I have to scoop stuff out of bus toilets with a cup, because I knew an artist had O.C.D. and if they would have seen what was in the bus they would have probably never gotten back on. I had to deal with getting rid of people, security stuff. It's worse, and not as bad, as everybody thinks it is. 

I use a database that a lot of tour managers use. It's just a big database that keeps all the information that we need to do a tour and it also allows us to build itineraries, day sheets, and it just happened to be that The Black Keys' management had just bought that database. So they called me and at the time it was kind of a step down from where I've been. 



Lucinda Williams at the time had been doing bigger things than what The Black Keys [were], believe it or not. It was around 2010, and at the time I said, Well, until something better comes along I'll take it. It ended up being the biggest thing I've done. 

When we started, the first shows I did, they were just transitioning from a two-piece to a four-piece [band]. At that point we could put all the band and crew and the gear in one bus. By the time we wrapped things up last year, we were 10 trucks, 10 buses, and 70 people. 



My role [went] from doing everything to basically having security people, assistants, production coordinators, a production manager, dressing room people, [and] wardrobe people that we didn't have before when it was just me alone with a sound guy, lighting guy and a guitar tech. 



I was hired in March, 2010 and I think that May the record ["Brothers"] came out. They went from selling out clubs to — within a year — we sold out our first arena. 

I grew up in Wisconsin, in Green Bay. It's football, Green Bay Packers and cheese. I love cheese, but I don't love the other option. But for me, being a kid, there was like six of us into punk rock in the late '70s. We got beat up a lot. The people wearing green and gold, the sports fans, were also the guys that were beating us up because we were the ones that were different. 



So music is the thing that saved me. I sang in a hardcore band in the early '80s. We put on shows, which is how I got involved in doing what I do now. And the thing I wanted to do all my life was travel. For me, getting to do what I do now is a connection to what I was dealing with growing up. It's all I ever wanted to do was get out of Green Bay, travel and do music. 

He's been pretty apolitical. If you consider one of his hits before this, it was called "How Many Drinks?" — and it was literally about, How many drinks can I get this girl to drink before she'll go home with me from the club? This would be quite a departure from what he's done before. But it's also in keeping with what's going on in music right now, because a lot of the artists who are addressing this moment we're having right now — the Black Lives Matter moment — really have been pretty apolitical.

Definitely. There's some sort of groundswell that's happening now. It's taken a while and it's interesting in the case of rap, because rap came initially from a place of telling you what was happening on the street before anyone else knew it. Now, it is essentially pop music.

Particularly with Beyoncé right now, there's a new artist emerging in her who has a lot of anger. Her album "Lemonade" — there are songs on there that are addressing being black in America. Jay-Z has done this in the past. In the beginning of his career, when he came out of what may have been labeled gangster rap, he was talking about what it was like to be a black man on the streets. He's kind of coming back around to that. I think they feel a collective responsibility at this point, being the essential royal couple of music, being two of the top artists in the U.S. Also, they have a little girl now. They've both said, I don't want to bring my child up in this kind of world that I came up in and am seeing around me. I'm concerned for her safety. I think that's also given them a new sense of urgency. 

That's what's interesting. You would think that because music can weigh in so much faster than film or TV can do, you would think there would be more of that out there, and there isn't. Some of these songs you're hearing now, [like] Jay-Z's "Spiritual" — he wrote that last year, or even before that. Usher and Nas — that song ["Chains"] is almost a year old. It's taken a while for them to put those up. So you would think that you'd be hearing a lot more of this.

I do. I think it's been really frustrating actually to watch what's been going on in the world and to not hear pop, hip-hop and rock really weigh in on it in any meaningful sort of way. There have been outliers here and there, but it's this amazing platform that can weigh in quickly. I'm happy it's happening now. I'm happy we see signs of it. But it's taken a long, long time.