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Los Angeles County has finally caught up with other big cities where you can buy a card, fill it up with money and use it like a debit card on buses and Metro rail lines. That means no more making sure you have the correct change or worrying if the credit card machine will work (but you can still do that if you want).
Eventually, the new TAP Cards should work on most all transit lines in the county, including DASH and others, but it only works on Metro and Culver City Bus for now.
There's one problem, though, about all of this: you can't buy a TAP card at a station (except Union Station) until sometime in 2009 when they'll be available at rail machines. In the meantime there are various locations--mostly liquor stores--to pick one up at.
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Um, I've had a functional TAP card for 6 months now...
Yes, Paul, but now Metro is going to stop giving out monthly paper cards all together and switch exclusively to the TAP system.
Zach, how does this work for monthly pass holders? Do you get a discounted fair for using to TAP card? Do you get a discount if you put a certain amount of money on the card? I'm a very infrequent metro user, as my commute from WeHo to the Valley makes using public transit everyday a bit of a nightmare. I like using the red line to get down town, though. Do you think getting a TAP would be worth 1-2 trips a month? Do your dollars ever expire?
yes! ive written SO many comments to the MTA about this. its about time. im sick of a tap card only being worthwhile if you take transit 1-2 times daily (which i dont). and i hate carrying change. this is fantastic news!
Paul, yes, they had them available on a limited basis with limited use (for me, I had no practical use for the non-debit version they were promoting--it was the same as a monthly or weekly except you just refill it instead of buying a new one. If they had the debit version available and weren't advertising it, then that will be the first I've heard of it, but you may know better on that one). Now, they are officially rolling them out which I'm excited about.
Msmerymac, I believe, but will have to confirm (anyone who officially knows, chime in here), that there will be no special discounts for going TAP.
Do I believe it's worth it for 1-2 trips a month? Yes. For years as a teenager I kept my CTA pass in my wallet, even though I didn't commute on the trains in Chicago much. But when I arrived to a station, I had the pass ready to go in my wallet. It was quite convenient.
There's a lot of fine print, msmerymac. If you have an unused balance on your card there will be a fee deduction. There is no discount for using TAP, but you can have your monthly pass put on your TAP card. There are different kinds of cards, apparently--the Regular one, the one that identifies you personally, and the reduced fare one (i.e. you are eligible for a fare discount because of age, disability, etc). I am not sure what of those besides the generic one are available right now; I'm gussing you'd have to go to the main Metro booth at Union Station to deal with that.
The TAP cards are meant to last you three years; they feel like a gift card; not as hefty as a credit card, but not as floppy as, say, NYC's Metro card.
I honestly don't know if getting one for one to two trips a month is worth it. I got one in the mail yesterday through Metro's "You've moved, ride Metro!" program (I don't know what it's called, actually, I just got a letter in the mail not long after I moved a few months ago) and mine apparently has a "5 day pass" on it. I'm going to see how it goes in the next couple of weeks... It's about time Metro got this going!
if they want to change the image of Metro from 'poor-people transit' to 'universal and socially-encouraged transit' they need to sell TAP cards in the stations, banks, high-end stores, downtown hotels, etc... not just at dirty liquor stores and payday check cashing shops. Seriously, does Metro have a marketing department?
color me ignorant, but i can't seem to find any information on how an intermittent user (maybe once or twice a week) would use the tap card. all references are to weekly and monthly passes.
Yay finally. The pass only TAP card thing never made sense for me because I use a bike mostly and only use transit on occasion. No more loose change fumbling or having to pick up a train ticket for every ride.
Zach, or anyone, would the TAP card be debited more than $5 if you ride Metro more than four times in a day (the value of a day pass)? Or will it keep deducting $1.25 from your balance?
galaxiekat - I think this change addresses your problem. TAP was always weekly or monthly, so for me it was pointless as I used metro infrequently except to get to Hollywood occasionally.
If what I am reading is right, you'll now be able to buy a card and put $20 on it that will last for awhile (not sure how long). So you'll be able to keep a card with some sort of balance without worrying about it expiring.
I've been using the TAP card for about three months now, monthly pass. It's great because I take two trains in the morning and two at night. They'll gladly fill it every month automatically from your bank account, but you need to call them and authorize it. I haven't had to worry that the end of the month was approaching, well, besides having to pay the mortgage on a home decreasing in value like it's on a water slide.
Am I reading this right that the debit feature is live, as I know the pass loading service has been around for a while. The metro website is confusing and ambiguous about all this, and has been advertising the debit features long before they existed.
Wait, I'm confused by this, especially after reading the comments.
So I can load up the card online or at a Metro Station. But I have to use the amount within a certain time or the card will be subject to a fee? And does this card contain personal info on it or is it a blank, anonymous card?
Confused. :(
I very recently got a new TAP card and found the following to be true in my case.
1) Quickest and easiest way was to buy the card online with a monthly pass loaded onto it. www.taptogo.net. Now I understand this doesnt help the casual users, that unfortunately is Union Station for yous, but a good reason to get to MOCA?
2) Once you buy TAP card with monthly pass loaded on it, you'll get it in the mail within about 10 days. So buy around 12-17th of the month to make sure you have it ready to rock from then on.
3) You can do the debit path. I prefer to pay online through taptogo.net monthly (currently on 2nd month). Once you have paid once, its a few clicks clicks to purchase again, easy peasy.
4) On the 2 previous occasions I have tried to add money to my TAP card at Universal, I have fought through a bunch of unhelpful menus, often with the result that I cannot add cash to my card because I have a monthly pass on it. Now this could be user error, or it could just be that you cant. I will try again tonight :)
Panasonicyouth, et al,
I have a call into the TAP manager to answer all your questions. So keep asking away in the comments section. I should be speaking to her this afternoon.
Apparently they don't think we Westsiders will want one of these...Culver City is the only location that's anywhere near me to score a pass...and that's not even that close.
Sorry about that, the entry didn't really make it clear what exactly was being rolled out, officially or not.
Considering that when I bought the card, 6 months ago, I was actually trying to buy a monthly pass (as I usually did) and the attendant told me "we won't be using these anymore, we're issuing TAP cards," and when I asked if it was a trial run she said that it was official now, it doesn't seem like there's anything new about this (relevant links?).
And the debit function doesn't work for the card. Not as of yesterday at least.
Thanks, Paul.
I'll also ask why it wasn't working yesterday when I speak to them.
I'm on tokens right now - monthly passes don't make sense for 2 boardings/day. If I could do 2 TAPs per day to replace tokens, that'd be great. The ticket machines seem to down 5% of the time due to token/mechanical problems. Will be very interested to see what clarification Zach gets from MTA today.
jeffro - that's a great point.
Just spoke to Metro and should have all your questions answered from the comments section.
Post forthcoming. Biggest thing to know right now is that the whole debit feature was announced without a specific date, but is not currently available. It's a roll out in 2009. I'll link from here to the new post.
Decaf Bruin - Hopefully they'll incorporate this into the other buses and the DASH. Although I've been told I can't use a metro transfer for a lot of things, like connections between buses (?! - LA is the only city I've seen with that system), only rail to bus, bus to rail. I'm not sure if you can use a transfer on the DASH, either, since it's $.25, not a full-price fare. But we'll keep hoping that LA will have a smoothly running and convenient transit system some day!
Thanks for all the info, everyone who has contributed to this thread!
Lindsay, I got that letter in the mail, too, but I *think* it said I have to call them, then they'll send me a five day pass. Is it for five consecutive days or is it like having five, 1-day passes? Either way, it's free, so I'll be using it.
msmerymac: My letter came with a form that I sent back to them--no calls made! It is a 5 Day pass which is good for 5 consecutive days starting with your first swipe. I felt the same way: Why not get it?
Curious that in all the booklets and fine print info that came in my Metro TAP card bundle yesterday it didn't say anywhere that the debit program wasn't currently in effect. They made it seem like "This is how it goes! Yay, TAP!" and when I told Zach about it, he raised basically all of the questions that have cropped up in the comments, including the ones specific to the card's debit capability.
It's a great program, but what's really happening/able to happen seems confusing considering the mixed messages Metro is putting forth. My concern is how reliable the TAP machines will be when people are using them more frequently.
Do we know when the stations expect to have fare gates up? Is the push to move to TAP part of this change?
I'm looking forward to the update with more clarification.
I think that others have already asked this but perhaps in different words, so here's my attempt... what I want is a card that I can load up with whatever amount of money I want, that won't expire after the month is over. I'm not a daily rider, maybe a few times a week. It's not worth it for me to pay for a full month (most of which will go unused and then expire), but if I could for example put $20 on a card to use up at my own pace and then refill, this would be really great. I seriously hope the offer it this way, it makes no sense to expect casual non-daily riders to purchase full fee monthly amounts which expire before they are used up.
Please Metro folks, don't make this more complicated or costly than it needs to be in order to get people using your trains!
OK some clarification for everyone. TAP card has only 3 options now:
Monthly Pass
Zone 1 Pass
Zone 2 Pass
This is official website for TAP.
https://www.taptogo.net/
Debit option will be available in 2009 but there is no exact date yet.
It works like this, you put a specific amount of money on it, either by credit card or using your debit card or bank account. They can refill your card every month.
Main idea is that it will work on ALL public transit in LA county, and others are joining too. So you can use DASH all you will do is TAP your card with balance of lets say 25$ that tap will cost .25c cause DASH costs that much so your remaining balance will be 24.75$, easy breezy.
Now there will be different ways to find out what is your balance, and I think when you drop below 5$ you will get a message on a machine that you use your TAP with last to tell you that.
Now somebody call METRO and tell them to hurry up with it.
I already have a TAP card through UCLA's GoMetro program. But that program is invalid from Dec 15 - Jan 4. Is there a way I can add some value to my TAP card for that period of time?
I created a new account on the "tap to go" website, but how do I associate that account with my existing TAP card?
(confused)
Folks, here is the TAP Implementation Plan. It should answer all of your questions, albeit in the usual bureaucratic speak.
Now, each question above, in reverse chronological order:
- No, since the stored value function is not activated on the TAPs issued by Metro. As far as I can tell you can't add stored value to the TAP cards on Metro TVMs or at customer service centers. You CAN add stored value to cards issued by Culver Citybus, or at Culver Citybus. I have had a stored value TAP card for over a year now. Here's one person's experience with the stored value function of the TAP card. Your UCLA TAP card is probably a card with your photo on it, though, and not a generic TAP card, so Culver City may not add money to it.
- To associate an existing TAP card with the online system, you click on the link that says "already have a TAP card" in the Self Service category under Fare Products on taptogo.net.
- The debit function is already implemented and is in effect with all TAP cards issued by Culver City. I have one in my wallet right now. I can add passes to it from taptogo.net, but not stored value. However, if I TAP on a fare gate or bus fare box, the $1.25 is deducted from the card. The autorecharge function is what you are referring to, and it still needs to be turned on, if not completely developed from scratch.
- "if I could for example put $20 on a card to use up at my own pace and then refill, this would be really great." That's what they are doing. Read Page 55 of the PDF linked above.
- "Do we know when the stations expect to have fare gates up? Is the push to move to TAP part of this change?" The first fare gates are to be installed on the Eastside Gold Line set to open up in June 2009. They are then going at all of the Green and Red Line stations, as well as selected Blue and Gold Line stations, in the following two years. The dates when the first work will begin are on Page 95 of the PDF above (the schedule only goes to the end of 2009). TAP was developed independently of gating (as part of the Universal Fare System, budgeted for the past ten years). The reason we went to gating was Yvonne Burke complained loudly enough and the rest of the MTA Board scratched their head about it and thought "security might be an issue", never mind that there are five stations for each station agent to cover under the gating staffing plan. Yes, this and King Drew Hospital is Yvonne's legacy.
Continuing. Funny that Metro never got back to Zach that day.
The debit function is not advertised because Metro still thinks of doing a phased rollout. But it is active and it can be used successfully on rail and most buses. (Because drivers have not been informed of the TAP debit function, riders of zoned bus lines like the 445 and 485 will have to explain the question "ZONES ?" that pops up on the display and verbally tell the driver how many zones they are traveling.)
- "Hopefully they'll incorporate this into the other buses and the DASH. Although I've been told I can't use a metro transfer for a lot of things, like connections between buses (?! - LA is the only city I've seen with that system), only rail to bus, bus to rail." More and more cities have dropped transfers because they invite fare fraud and are annoying for drivers to handle. San Jose, Dallas, Phoenix, San Diego, and Orange County are just some of the cities that no longer have transfers. The transfers are between different bus companies or between rail and non-Metro agencies. The "interagency transfer" is really an anachronism, because LA has so many agencies serving it. In a city with only agency (like San Diego, or Phoenix), they don't exist. And, yes, DASH does have transfers within Downtown DASH (A through F and DD only). They come in handy sometimes because many drivers don't punch their own line on the transfer. Interagency transfers are not accepted on DASH, as you suspected, because of the low fare. And your five day "welcome wagon" pass is valid for five consecutive days.
- "Biggest thing to know right now is that the whole debit feature was announced without a specific date, but is not currently available. It's a roll out in 2009." The debit feature IS currently available, and as stated on the links above, people have gotten it to work (myself included). It is not currently available to the general public, unless you buy it from the two Culver Citybus locations. At some point, Metro will turn on the feature on the rail ticket vending machines that allows TAP stored value to be added.
- "I'm on tokens right now - monthly passes don't make sense for 2 boardings/day." I agree, and that is what TAP is for.
- "Considering that when I bought the card, 6 months ago, I was actually trying to buy a monthly pass (as I usually did) and the attendant told me "we won't be using these anymore, we're issuing TAP cards," and when I asked if it was a trial run she said that it was official now, it doesn't seem like there's anything new about this (relevant links?). And the debit function doesn't work for the card. Not as of yesterday at least." See the links above. At the locations listed on page 127 of the first link (the TAP Implementation Plan), only TAP-loaded passes are sold. No paper monthly passes are sold at those locations. By June 2009, if the plan is followed, no paper monthly or weekly passes will be sold anywhere within the Metro system. They will be loaded onto each person's TAP cards. If you want to add an amount to debit off of, go to the locations in this link and add debit amounts. The stored value purse will be activated on Metro TVMs and pass sales locations some time in 2009.
- "4) On the 2 previous occasions I have tried to add money to my TAP card at Universal, I have fought through a bunch of unhelpful menus, often with the result that I cannot add cash to my card because I have a monthly pass on it. Now this could be user error, or it could just be that you cant. I will try again tonight :)" That is because the stored value function is not active on Metro ticket machines. I have no pass of any kind on my TAP card and the only way I can add credit is to go back to Culver City and do so there.
- "So I can load up the card online or at a Metro Station. But I have to use the amount within a certain time or the card will be subject to a fee? And does this card contain personal info on it or is it a blank, anonymous card?"
The pass will be just like the current passes, valid for unlimited rides within a day, a week, a month, a year... whatever is paid for. For the stored value, there is no expiration date. The cards do say "A service fee of $1.00 per month will be deducted from any remaining fare product value after 18 months of inactivity", but that is illegal under California law, that states that gift cards (which technically this is) cannot have inactivity fees. Does the card contain person information? Each card is individually numbered. If you register the card, you link the number to your name and address in the database. And, of course, if you are using a discounted pass, you name and photo (for college students, seniors, and the disabled) are right on the card. Although they say the information is private, Metro has to follow valid court orders. Just like E-Z Pass toll tag data in the East Coast, the TAP database can be subpoenaed and logs provided to police with a warrant, or divorce lawyers who can get a judge to sign off on a request for production.
- "Am I reading this right that the debit feature is live, as I know the pass loading service has been around for a while." The debit feature is not advertised on the Metro web site. It is alive, has been alive for over a year, and advertised on the Culver Citybus web site, but again is intended only for that agency - although the purse is valid on any agency with a TAP reader installed, including Metro.
- "If what I am reading is right, you'll now be able to buy a card and put $20 on it that will last for awhile (not sure how long). So you'll be able to keep a card with some sort of balance without worrying about it expiring." That's correct.
- "Zach, or anyone, would the TAP card be debited more than $5 if you ride Metro more than four times in a day (the value of a day pass)? Or will it keep deducting $1.25 from your balance?" The concept is called "fair fare", and it is not currently turned on in Metro. In my test, I have had the TAP card deduct $6.25 in one day. According to page 57 of the above linked PDF, the day pass is a prepaid pass and must be purchased, not issued retroactively after a certain number of fares have been used.
"Fair fare" capacity is enabled on the cards and Cubic will be enabling this on the Compass Card in San Diego County, which uses the same technology as the LA Metro TAP. There, when the cash purse is rolled out later in 2009, per SANDAG board action, the purse will deduct a maximum of the day pass amount per day, and the monthly pass amount per rolling 30 day period. The concept of rolling passes has not been introduced to Metro. Call your Metro board members if you want to see it implemented in Los Angeles.
Last post then I'm going to bed.
- "color me ignorant, but i can't seem to find any information on how an intermittent user (maybe once or twice a week) would use the tap card. all references are to weekly and monthly passes." That is correct. Until Metro implements the debit function at their ticket machines and pass sales outlets, the debit function officially only exists in Culver City.
- "if they want to change the image of Metro from 'poor-people transit' to 'universal and socially-encouraged transit' they need to sell TAP cards in the stations, banks, high-end stores, downtown hotels, etc... not just at dirty liquor stores and payday check cashing shops. Seriously, does Metro have a marketing department?" The commission that Metro pays to pass sales outlets is not enough to justify banks, hotels, etc. to sell them. They are going to have people hand out TAP cards at rail stations when they implement gating, but for the most part you'll have to get them from those stores. You can add TAP passes from any rail station ticket vending machine. You probably will be able to get a TAP card from a rail station once gating is implemented, but it will cost you $3-$5.
- "If you have an unused balance on your card there will be a fee deduction. There is no discount for using TAP, but you can have your monthly pass put on your TAP card. There are different kinds of cards, apparently--the Regular one, the one that identifies you personally, and the reduced fare one (i.e. you are eligible for a fare discount because of age, disability, etc). I am not sure what of those besides the generic one are available right now; I'm gussing you'd have to go to the main Metro booth at Union Station to deal with that."
At the start of next year, everyone in the discount categories will have to reapply for new cards. This means that seniors, the disabled, and college students will have to take new pictures to be printed on the TAP card. The TAP pass is then credited directly to the card, rather than affixed as a sticker. According to the TAP Implementation Plan, the rollout for the disocunt categories begins Christmas Eve. And, yes, there is an "inactivity fee" but it is illegal per state law.
- "Msmerymac, I believe, but will have to confirm (anyone who officially knows, chime in here), that there will be no special discounts for going TAP." Because the fare structure change eliminated the previous bulk purchase discount (tokens), the TAP will not have discounts for single use. Now, what could happen, especially on rail, is a surcharge for a "limited use" TAP card to be issued to go through a rail faregate. This is what is done in Atlanta, where a 50 cent charge is imposed for their limited use fare cards. In addition, day passes will no longer be issued on non-TAP media, which means that visitors will have to pay the $3-$5 for a TAP card in addition to the day pass.
Thanks for all of that calwatch. For me, going all the way to Culver City to buy a card that carries a balance and won't expire just isn't worth it right now. Especially if you have to go back to CC to refill it.
Will be on the lookout when it comes to Union Station.
Thank you, Calwatch, for taking considerable time to answer those questions.