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UPDATE BELOW THE JUMP.
Braving unseasonably (and unbearably) hot summer-like weather*, thousands of equality supporting Angelenos gathered this morning in Downtown to protest the nefarious assault on the civil rights of gay Americans, the much reviled Proposition 8. It was a fitting end to a week that's seen a tremendous (albeit much too late) backlash against the measure - Protests at Mormon temples, a boycott of a longstanding staple of West Hollywood dining - even the Governator threw his belated 2 cents in.
Police estimated that around 10 to 12,000 people showed up. We managed to make it out there ourselves and though it's entirely possible we're suffering from sunstroke, our experience says that 12,000 is a conservative number. We'll have to wait and see if a different estimate comes in. Meanwhile, 12 or 40,000, it felt like half the city was there. Here's our experience, in picture.
UPDATE: There's still no official count aside from the LAPD estimates reported by the LA Times, but here's something kind of interesting - CNN is reporting that in Los Angeles, "thousands of demonstrators were met by counter-demonstrators." According to the moribund news channel's website, these protesters were shouting:
"There is nothing civil about a man marrying another man," one protester yelled. "You lost. It is not a civil rights issue. It is an issue with morality."
Now I don't want to besmirch the already shaky reputation of "The Most Trusted Name in News", but this sounds like CNN might be trying to find fair and balanced storytelling where it doesn't exist. I'd expect Fox to report on this in a way that implies strongly that gay rights are controversial in California, that this bill represents the immutable will of the electorate, despite reports of confusion and outright lying on the part of Pro prop 8 advocates. So maybe CNN felt similarly and decided that the story needed to be reported that way, no matter what happened, so the rubes who voted for prop 8 won't get the vapors.
But what do I know? Maybe there was a mass of extremely vocal, newsworthy bigots shouting down the anti discrimination marchers. Sure, why not?
But it's telling that they used leading language - "thousands of demonstrators were met by counter-demonstrators" - suggesting an equal or at least comparable number of counter protesters to protesters.
It's also telling that (abandoning third person for a moment) I was actually there in person, and I didn't see anything remotely resembling this dubious report.
What I did see was a tiny trickle of very sad looking people carrying yes on Prop 8 signs and looking like the heat was about to kill them, but these people represented maybe 1/10 thousandth of the total body count. I think. I saw exactly 3 of them. They were also silent, tired looking and didn't appear to be mustering anything even remotely close to a newsworthy counter effort. Perhaps certain LAist commenters might think this warrants, ahem, equal treatment, but if we learned anything from the CTW, it's that one of these things is not like the other. Which is to say, one exists, and the other, as far as I can tell, simply doesn't.
I'm not a big shot TV news director or a highly paid pundit, so I obviously am in no position to talk, much less publish my thoughts, but if I've learned anything from my rather less-than-awe inspiring journalism career, it's that a newsworthy counter-protest consists of, you know, something approaching comparable numbers of people. 3 people shouting at the massive, thousands of people strong rally? That's not a counter protest, that's a couple of sad, cranky bigots, desperate for attention, shouting at a reporter too lazy to think of any other way to report on the story.
Think back to the way the pre-war protests were covered. Thousands, in some cases hundreds of thousands of people would converge on every major city you can think of, shouting for the homicidal maniacs in the Bush Administration (and their spineless, sycophantic enablers in the Democratic party) to stop rushing the nation towards a clearly unjustifiable war based on total bullshit. Meanwhile, 14 inbred rednecks carrying misspelled signs accusing war opponents of being faggots would stand to the side of a tiny portion of the protest route, shouting idiotic platitudes about how these colors don't run, and FREEDOM ISN'T FREE!**, and the media (especially CNN) would treat it as if the entire populations of West point, the Citadel and the University of Texas had shown up and their numbers positively dwarfed the liberal hippie commies who didn't want to liberate Iraq. it was probably the single most stroke-inducing frustration of the lead up to the war.
However, I'll admit that I'm not omnipotent. Perhaps one of our astute readers saw something I didn't, but until I hear the first person run down from someone I actually trust, I'm calling ratings plummeting, increasingly irrelevant bullshit.
***
The march that started in front of City Hall on Spring took more than 2 hours for the crowd to wind around first street, down main and finally into Chinatown where it dispersed, peacefully BTW, and outraged citizens went home sweaty and exhausted but hopefully, if they survived sunstroke, a little closer to restoring full rights to California's same sex relationships.
The one thing that stood out, sadly, is the fact that had this kind of action occurred in October, we probably could have stopped Prop 8 in it's tracks. Yes, the advocates of Prop 8 shamelessly lied through their supposedly-god fearing teeth, and yes, the Mormon church nefariously fudged the Separation of Church and State to the point of Absurdity (why aren't they getting audited by the IRS anyway?). But that's no excuse for the shameful lack of action that prefaced the election. Hopefully, lesson learned, and by 2010, one way or another, this nonsense will be behind us, gay people can get back to marrying, and desperately intrusive Funduhmentalist Christians can find some other groups' underwear to sniff around in.
*seriously, I know it's daylight savings but I didn't realize that "fall back" meant back to July. Christ! But seriously, in case anyone mistakes this for not caring about the fires, rest assured A) that we know the heat is due in part to the fires and B) holy hell we really would prefer that city not burn down and that thousands not lose their homes or their lives.
** it's costs one dollar and five cents.
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Oooo...bravely, surviving unbearable sunstroke!
Meanwhile, your fellow Angelenos are bravely, suffering possible death in order to save communities.
Didn't you even consider for one second that this protest might be just a tad bit ill-timed today?
Of course not. Because it's all about you and your "suffering". After all, you're the real victims here.
Keep.It.Up.
Gosh, if what you're saying is true, then LAist has been completely ignoring the fires.
http://laist.com/2008/11/15/3100_residents_of_anaheim_hills_ask.php
http://laist.com/2008/11/15/corona_and_yorba_linda_fires_contin.php
http://laist.com/2008/11/15/video_footage_of_sayre_fire_capture.php
http://laist.com/2008/11/15/small_fire_burns_in_palos_verdes.php
Oh wait, we haven't. Which must mean you're being a contrarian, er, well, stop being that way.
Or, maybe, now the horrible truth that Gay people hate victims of fires has been revealed! So that's why we call them flaming?!? Those scoundrels!
Did I say that LAist was ignoring the fires Ross?
No, I did not.
Did I say that gay people hate the fire victims Ross?
No, I did not.
Again, my question was and still is, do you think this protest was a wise choice today.
I await your honest response.
My honest response is that the fires are newsworthy due to the tremendous loss of property and risk to thousands of lives, and the protests are also newsworthy because they're happening nationwide and they're, you know, about the fact that thousands of people were denied a previously held civil right.
But in case you're out of kleenex from the sobbing about how mean the meanie old meanie gays are for having their protest today, bear in mind that they were scheduled and arranged with the city before the fires started, and similar protests are happening nationwide in many other cities not currently suffering the tragedy of a fire, and well, as a result the gay community isn't selfishly putting the fire out of the news.
You know, the LAtimes also covered the protest. I assume you're sending a similarly angry at teh gheys screed to them too, right?
My honester answer is that you're being a deliberately contrarian concern troll, and you've managed to draw me into a poo flinging contest with you. Stop doing that. It's just silly.
I'm sure many people had things scheduled and arranged today. But when tragedy strikes, they generally tend to cancel those plans, lest they appear selfish and unsympathetic.
Trust me when I say that this movement is starting to bleed supporters and today's actions have only further served to alienate those who might have supported this cause.
If questioning the choice of continuing with today's ill-advised protest here in Los Angeles makes me a silly deliberately contrarian concern troll, then so be it.
Only...I do have to wonder what the LAist response might have been if instead we had Yes on Prop 8 supporters merrily marching down First Street while homes burned in the San Fernando Valley.
Dare I say it that many here would be questioning their decision.
I'll answer it - yes. Yes it was a wise choice. It's unfortunate timing, but that's all. Everything needn't stop because there are fires in southern L.A. Sadly, fires in southern L.A. during Santa Ana winds are not an unusual occurrence, however tragic they are.
These nationwide protests take more than a few days to organize - although this was pulled together remarkably fast - and need to happen while they are still topical and hold together - though I personally believe you're not interested in anything but finding something to criticize about the marriage equality movement. Reading all your previous comments, that seems clear.
And you may not have explicitly stated that either gays hate the fire victims or that Laist was ignoring the fires, but your implications were 1) mentioning the heat somehow claimed greater "victimhood" for the marchers, which is both an erroneous interpretation and irrelevant, as gays are not opting for victimhood, but standing up for their civil rights and 2) reporting on this story is somehow in competition with reporting on the fires? Heartless while "real" suffering occurs? I suggest you take a look at the range of topics covered in any publication on any given day. Reporting on one topic doesn't make the claim that any suffering it may allude to more significant than any other. That's just your flawed logic.
Oh, that's right - you were the one that thought that NoOn8 protesters should be more "nuanced" (with a dig at Obama voters) and posted the stunning idea that marriage-equality activists take the fight to the "Yes on 8" voters by immediately heading down to Leimart Park to protest. Now *there* was a brilliant strategy, not racist at all, and guaranteed to win in the court of public opinion. Not.
The protests held outside the Mormon temple should have made you happier, then, right? Or was there something wrong with them, too? Not a good idea to protest outside the institution representing the largest donors to "Yes on 8"? Or did you post messages of congratulations, and I just missed them?
Sorry, aptly-named Ugly American, marriage-equality is coming, and if not sooner, then later - but it will happen.
You can say whatever you want, but since there wasn't a "Yes on 8" march today, we'll never know.
Personally, I would have been fine with it either way. People on the streets downtown are people that aren't rubbernecking in a disaster area, or they're people who have already evacuated from their homes. If they had their march in Sylmar, you'd have a point.
I was there as well, and I agree it's a conservative number. I was marching down Main St while people were still marching down Spring St. I would have stayed out there longer if it hadn't been so HOT. It was nice of the Abbey to provide free bottled water. :-)
The fires have absolutely nothing to do with the protest and vice versa.
Since prop 8 took AWAY a right, and therefore didn't involve fighting for a right, I can understand the complacency before the election. And hey, the supporters had to lie about a bunch of stuff just to get a slim majority, right?
QuoterGal: Yes, there are actually other queers in this city who think these protests are asinine.
Imagine that.
I agree that 10,000 is a very conservative estimate for today's march Downtown. The speakers, among them Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa who spoke this morning in Sylmar and helicoptered to speak at the No on H8TE rally, were brilliant, moving and inspiring.
As for the comments above about the fires: It is unfortunate timing, but try thinking of it this way: I'm sure gay couples lost their homes today. And god forbid one half of a formerly married gay couple were injured in the fires today, their partner may have been denied visitation rights were they to be hospitalized; could be denied property if, god forbid, they passed away.
Which brings me to my point: This is about so much more than just marriage -- it's about Civil Rights and Equality for ALL.
Quit flaming each other guys.... Even the flaming homose--.., uh, er....
bad timing.
There's people of all kinds that believe all kinds of things (I have gay friends who hate the Gay Pride parade as "noisy" and "tacky", but I always think that's internalized homophobia) but that doesn't mean squat. Elton John thinks it's all so "off-putting" and that means exactly as much as your input. I hope you don't think it's relevant if you're gay - if you are - and are against the protests - if you are - because it's truly not. Can't even tell for sure if you're anti-same-sex marriages, because your posts are so unclear.
And btw, there are straight people - like myself - that think these protests are exactly what are needed to illustrate that there are many, many kinds of marriage-equality supporters, male and female, gay and straight and religious and atheist and black and white and transgendered and bi and latino and so on... more every day, as it happens. Imagine that.
I did notice that you failed to respond to my remarks about the marches vis-à-vis the fires, or about the protests in front of the Mormon temple, or your brilliant Leimert Park march suggestion, or that your interpretations of Laist's article were flawed, which would really have been more to the point than the sexual orientation of anyone who thinks the protests are "asinine."
And though you clearly are unaware of it, this movement is actually gaining supporters by the minute, rather than alienating the public en masse, as evidenced by the exponentially-growing membership and participation in marches, organizations and online groups all over the U.S.
We may have lost you from the cause, but I'm inclined to conclude that may be all to the good, and that we'll muddle on through without you. I suspect you were a lost cause from the beginning. Tant pis as me old mother used to say.
pork chop sandwiches
Please don't feed the trolls, people.
i support the protests and the boycotts!
Why are the "Yes on 8" people such bad winners?
I support the protests and boycotts as well.
Bravo, QuoterGal. You said everything I wanted to say, but even better.
Because if there's one thing that links together all of the various factions of modern conservatism, it's that all of them, (from the religious nutballs, to the evil corporate overlords, to the "rugged individualists" who can't explain why they take so much money from the government, to the old money inbreeders, to the help-it's-an-immigrint set, to the out and proud racists, to libertarians who literally support everything the republicans do as long as they get their filthy little tax cut, to the bomb-the-living-shit-out-of-everything crowd,) all of them are whiny, self centered little crybabies in almost every aspect of their lives.
Being a pathetic little crybaby is practically the raison d'etra of modern American conservatism.
Being a cheater is probably a close second. It's the only way they can win. For instance, Prop 8, which it must be stated again and again passed largely for 2 reasons - the proponents lied through their teeth about California law to gather up low information voters, and the Mormon church shamefully violated their tax exempt status to insert themselves into the political process.
Then again, being a cheater is usually hand in hand with being a little whiny baby.
More photos and videos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tballw32/sets/72157609190332838/
I'm really depressed that I wasn't there in person at the protest--I had a good excuse for flaking, as my apartment building's bathtubs and sinks were filling up with poo water from a gunked-up pipe and I had to wait all day for dudes to break up my nice concrete patio and fix it. But that's another story.
What Ross hinted at is that yes, goddam it, where was this mass energy when we needed it? We've been living in a conservative, er, cesspool for years, yet for some reason, most people I know felt no compulsion to come down and help man the phones to prevent this from getting on the ballot, which is where we should have stopped it cold, or to rally opposition to it once it got there. Politics only works for the side of good if we're proactive, not reactive. It's so much easier to fight against a bad law if it never gets passed.
I think, collectively, the reaction to this nonsense from most of the states' progressive and gay communities was laughter, followed by "yougottabefuckingkiddingme". Which is to say, we really didn't think it had a chance in heck of passing.
I think it really wasn't until mid August that people finally realized that this wasn't the case, but by that point, the Mormon church had flagrantly violated their tax exmept status, and they along with the other advocates for the bill had been shamelessly and shamefully lying about California law for months.
Here's something interesting, BTW - 3 years ago The Mormon church refused to sign a letter condeming torture and supporting laws that would put an end to the Bush adminstration's shameful violation of the human rights of their illegal prisoners. They said it was "too political".
Interesting that they seem to think teh ghey is worse than torture.
Agreed on all points of media coverege analysis but...
"...would treat it as if the entire populations of West point, the Citadel and the University of Texas had shown up and their numbers positively dwarfed the liberal hippie commies who didn't want to liberate Iraq."
Hey now, UT is no West Point! I was a student there at the time, and the were huge anti-war demonstrations in front of and on campus that shut down streets, etc. If you've spent any time in Austin you'll know that it's a very liberal city, and while the school has it's share of conservatives to be sure, it's not overwhelmingly so...
^^^^Make that "coverage".
Hindinwood, case made - I'm from Oklahoma so I've spent many, happily liberal fun hours in Austin and I love that place. I meant to mention UT as shorthand for Dubya's texas. I see now I should have said Baylor, or A&M.
Rest assured, I would never besmirch the good name of Austin. However, those Longhorn assholes can eat me for defeating OU last month. Jerks.